Curse

Rikimaru · Oct 16, 2007, 04:45 PM // 16:45

Those spikes have to be charged with a fairly high adrenaline cost first though. The one I posted has 2 ~120 damage attacks with a 3/4 cast and no aftercast, wouldn't that make a good spike? And you missed the 33% increased run speed on Flame Djinn's Haste.

I didn't think about the fact that you'd only have to keep frenzy up while you're not the target, but I'd think that'd make the damage pretty inconsistent.

Can anyone point me to some fire ele builds that actually are great? I could still use some examples so I can see what makes a good fire damage build.

I think as it is, the build can rush in with constant +33% speed, throw out ~240 damage immediately (~180 against warriors, ~120 against rangers), then keep up ~40DPS from ordinary attacks and an extra 20DPS from degen (~60 in total), and every 10 seconds they can throw out another instant ~240 easy. If that's accurate, it should be able to kill a 60AL target in ~6 seconds.
Sounds good on paper.. I need to try it out a lot more.

Sir Pandra Pierva · Oct 16, 2007, 07:24 PM // 19:24

Basic Rodgorts spam.

Do you want good pve ele builds or good pvp ele builds.

Rikimaru · Oct 16, 2007, 10:42 PM // 22:42

Both would be nice, but I need PvP more.

Somehow I didn't notice until now that the build can use a shield, which I think it'd get more use out of than a focus most of the time. I can keep a focus too to switch to if I need it though.

Coloneh · Oct 16, 2007, 11:22 PM // 23:22

alright you have equipment down for PvP! a sword and shield, now you just need a build.

Rikimaru · Oct 16, 2007, 11:32 PM // 23:32

That doesn't even make sense, why are you wasting your time making a bunch of pointless posts?

[DE] · Oct 16, 2007, 11:42 PM // 23:42

Quote:

Originally Posted by Rikimaru

Ok, the ranking system means nothing on Pvxwiki

This http://www.pvxwiki.com/wiki/Build:W/E_Agonizing_Conjure is rated "good". The E/W build I quickly threw together several posts up is way better than that, and that probably isn't very good (so far I've tested it on a Warrior that I have no idea how good he was that I kicked the crap out of, and a Dervish who mopped the floor with me).

This is gonna make things real hard to figure out what makes a good damage warrior.
The ele builds were no help on there. Most of the fire builds, highly-rated or not, basically just consisted of random high-damage low-cast-time spells being spammed like crazy. And whenever one has a high reset? Glyph of Renewal/Echo!; a monkey could've made them...
-Edit- Now that I think of it, maybe that's what makes a good fire ele?

This one's real interesting http://www.pvxwiki.com/wiki/Build:W/E_Shock_Axe
I think it's a typical cookie-cutter shock warrior. But compared to my E/W build above, it has worse survivability, I'm pretty sure it has at least slightly worse damage, but it has knockdown and deep wound.
A lot of warrior damage builds use frenzy (huge surprise to me), which sets the defense only a few points above my E/W build, and just like my build, the only form of healing they usually have is Healing Signet. Of course, they can also take off frenzy for some temporary boost in defense... They probably do that before using Healing Signet, but unless I'm fighting a caster, that's what I can use Bonetti's Defense for, since it doesn't go away 'till after the skill is finished being cast.

Holy crap, I have to be missing something; http://www.pvxwiki.com/wiki/Build:W/D_Rending_Touch_Axe
"Excellent" build with frenzy and no self heal...

One last one I just found http://www.pvxwiki.com/wiki/Build:W/E_Conjure_Cripslash
Seriously, what am I missing here? These can't possibly be "Excellent" builds.

I'm sorry but those builds are actually fairly good and yours are subpar. Considering the fact that you never realized warriors use frenzy in PvP I'd suggest that you learn some basic builds before trying to design your own.

Rikimaru · Oct 16, 2007, 11:47 PM // 23:47

That's exactly what I have been doing! What do you think that whole post you quoted was about? That's HOW I found out that they use Frenzy.
I never said that build wasn't "subpar" either, I know it's not great. I threw that thing together in like 10 minutes, if it was finished, I'd be done with the thread now. I'm still posting here because I'm still trying to figure out how to improve it.

angmar_nite · Oct 16, 2007, 11:51 PM // 23:51

You just linked some of the finest builds for RA and TA out there...

Frenzy is a pvp warrior stable. Far better than flail or flurry. Of course most good warriors can cancel their stance in an instant.

Regen from mystic regen is an inferior healing stable for pvp, and being on the front lines will make you far more vulnerable to spikes and enchantment stripping. All those builds can somewhat survive without enchantments... Yours can't.

bonetti's defense? They'll just change targets or leave you to an ele.

Why would you pic a warrior or dervish profession if you can do what your doing now? Maybe because some professions are better at certain jobs than others? My mesmer doesn't try to summon a army of spirits, my dervish isn't the best archer. Your ele clearly is not the best front line fighter.

Simath · Oct 17, 2007, 12:15 AM // 00:15

Quote:

Originally Posted by Rikimaru

That's exactly what I have been doing! What do you think that whole post you quoted was about? That's HOW I found out that they use Frenzy.
I never said that build wasn't "subpar" either, I know it's not great. I threw that thing together in like 10 minutes, if it was finished, I'd be done with the thread now. I'm still posting here because I'm still trying to figure out how to improve it.

Delete your ele, erase your templates, and never attempt to create a melee ele again. Problem solved.

mrmango · Oct 17, 2007, 12:21 AM // 00:21

He's not making useless posts, he is right. Your builds are horrible for PVP, they harm your team's chance of winning. Please be nice.

angmar_nite · Oct 17, 2007, 01:05 AM // 01:05

Who was that aimed at?

LightningHell · Oct 17, 2007, 01:21 AM // 01:21

Quote:

Originally Posted by Rikimaru

That doesn't even make sense, why are you wasting your time making a bunch of pointless posts?

A melee weapon (or a spear) with +5/-5 energy modifiers and a shield is standard equipment for a caster in PvP.

Oh, and Frenzy is to Warriors what Reversal of Fortune is to a Monk and Savage/Dshot is to a Ranger.

Rikimaru · Oct 17, 2007, 01:49 AM // 01:49

I think I can fight off most of the "That build sucks and always will!" comments.

Let's look at the Shock Warrior: It has an average base damage of 17. The attacks in it's spike combo do +29, +38, and +20 damage along with a deep wound. That's 46, 55, and 37. 138 in total, 155 with Shock, 255 with DW.
Against 80AL - 41, 50, 32. 123/140/240
Against 100AL - 37, 46, 28. 111/128/228

If it did max base damage on every hit, that's 57, 66, 48. 171 in total, 188 with Shock, 288 with DW.
Against 80AL - 50, 59, 41. 150/167/267
Against 100AL - 43, 52, 34. 129/146/246

If EVERY hit was a critical, that's 85, 94, 76. 255 in total, 272 with Shock, 372 with DW.
Against 80AL - 71, 80, 62. 213/230/330
Against 100AL - 57, 66, 48. 171/188/288

All over the course of 4 seconds, usable once every 10 seconds, after 8 seconds the first time.

DPS - 17 (criticals make this much more complicated, but wiki claims that at roughly 12 mastery, you'll do around 21 DPS including them)

The spike from my E/W build:
127, 119. Total of 246, 305 with the sword attack (+59)
Against 80AL - 95, 89. 184/233
Against 100AL - 63, 59. 123/162

All over the course of 1.5 seconds, 2.5 with the sword attack, also usable every 10 seconds, immediately the first time but without the sword attack, and the non-sword part of the spike has the ability to hit multiple foes if it needs to.

DPS - 60

Between the two builds, mine has roughly 3 times more DPS between spikes, the spike itself is unleashed twice as fast as well as being able to be used an additional time right at the start of the fight.
The Axe build kicks my builds ass against really high AL targets when you include the deep wound, but the damage is actually slightly worse without it even against the high AL targets (of course the deep wound will always be there in the spike, but it's fairly easy to remove it after, negating the damage from it).
Against lower caster-type AL, my build totally beats the crap out of the damage from the axe build without the deep wound, and is still fairly better even with it.

The DPS of my build delivered between the spikes is hands down better than the axe build, by a pretty crazy amount.

My build has constant 86AL, an equal heal, and the ability to throw up Bonetti's defense before using the heal to negate the lower armor a decent portion of the time if you're going against a physical attacker.
The armor of the axe build is 116-126 vs physical, 96-106 vs elemental, or 116 vs both, and with Frenzy up, it's 60 vs physical and 40 vs elemental before modifiers (it's too complicated for me to figure that part out with Frenzy active).

The defense is better overall in the axe build than my build, but not by a drastic amount.

Utility-wise, the warrior gets a rez, +25% run speed, and a knockdown every 10 seconds.
Mine gets +33% run speed, which can be used to charge in initially. The warrior definitely wins out overall with utility.

So overall, mine has better damage, somewhat worse defense, and less utility.
The gap between the two builds doesn't seem significant to me. Since some parts are actually better, you could say that it's just a little more specialized than the warrior build. And this build isn't even finished, like I said, I threw it together in like 10 minutes.

LightningHell · Oct 17, 2007, 03:01 AM // 03:01

Assuming 60AL.

And be aware that your scythe attacks will be at about 8-34 (and the 15% modifier) instead of the full amount, and have about 17.25 DPS instead; an Axe warrior at 14 weapon mastery would be doing around 23 DPS without Frenzy, and at 16 weapon mastery he would be doing around 26.66 DPS without Frenzy - that translates to approximately 34.5 DPS and 40 DPS, respectively, with Frenzy on. This is with no attack skills.

With 20.7~ average damage on your scythe, and assuming attack skills are recharging between spiking. Victorious Sweep has standard activation, while Mystic has 3/4 instead. Factoring that, over 16.25 seconds, you would be doing around 23.4 DPS.

For your spike...looking at your skills, the obvious spiking order would be Shockwave/Mystic/Victorious, or Victorious/Mystic. The total would be around 281.4 damage, over 3.25 seconds.

The Axe spike has Eviscerate-Executioner's-Agonizing, which at 14 weapon mastery would do around 165 without DW, and at 16 would do around 181, over 2.44 seconds under Frenzy (who wouldn't sanely do that?). That would be either around 265 or 281 over 2.44 seconds, if DW life loss is counted.

At 60 AL, you lose the pressure game horribly but have a slightly better spike.

When you go into 80 AL, it actually looks better for your build, since attack skills ignore armor, but still not good enough. The above DPS calculation at 16.25 seconds would become 20.7~ DPS instead, while the Axe warrior's, at 14 weapon mastery, would drop to around 16.6, and 16 would drop to 18.8, withotu Frenzy - with Frenzy, they're still at 24~ and 28.2 DPS respectively. So now you can actually outdamage an Axe warrior without an IAS.

Your spike at 80 AL would become 214~ damage, while the Axe at 14 mastery would have 137 damage without Deep Wound and 237 damage with, and the Axe at 16 mastery would have 155 damage without DW and 255 damage with.

At 100 AL, The DPS calculation would become 16.4 DPS over 16.25 seconds, and 14/16 Axe Mastery respectively would yield 1) 11.75 and 13.33, without Frenzy, and 2) 17.625 and 20~ with Frenzy. You still can't beat a Warrior with Frenzy.

Your spike at a 100 AL target would be 166.2 damage in total. At 14/16 weapon mastery, the Axe would spike for 1) 122/138 damage without DW, and 2) 222/238 with.

The warrior also does not need to recast his enchantments once every however long your enchantments last, and a Warrior isn't susceptible to caster hate, while the E/W is also affected by melee hate.

So no, your build is pretty subpar.

PS. Double damage is -40 AL.

EDIT: I was being a retard and posting wrong numbers early on, but they should be fixed now.

Div · Oct 17, 2007, 08:16 AM // 08:16

When someone has to post number calculations to defend a build without considering everything else in the team, then you know the build is going to fail.

But if you want to play the numbers game, assuming you use the fire sword thing for calculations, a target with half a brain switching to a +10 armor vs fire shield will greatly cut down your damage. It's extremely vulnerable to an RC as a heal since it removes burning+bleeding. The lack of deep wound makes it pretty bad when spiking down single 600ish health targets, which adds an extra 120 damage to the shock axe build. This build's c-space ability is also much weaker than a typical conjure shock warrior.

Your armor and speed boosts are also highly dependent on enchantments. With enchant removal pretty much everywhere in PvP, it destroys your armor/speed completely and turns it against you (in terms of damage or them gaining energy/health).

You're pretty much right on for utility. The shock axe is superior because it can rez and knock down targets, providing much greater pressure than raw DPS. It has a reliable speed boost that doesn't get stripped easily.

Conclusion? Your build does less damage, has much weaker spiking ability, has lower and more unreliable armor, and fails at utility.

P.S. Targets don't stand there to get beat on. Anyone with half a brain will kite and that's where knockdowns from bulls strike comes in.

LightningHell · Oct 17, 2007, 08:29 AM // 08:29

Quote:

Originally Posted by holymasamune

The lack of deep wound makes it pretty bad when spiking down single 600ish health targets, which adds an extra 120 damage to the shock axe build.

Reminder: Deep Wound only cuts up to 100 health.

Rikimaru · Oct 17, 2007, 10:22 AM // 10:22

I should've listed the build I was talking about.
[skill]Star Burst[/skill] [skill]Barbarous Slice[/skill] [skill]Flame Djinn's Haste[/skill] [skill]Mark of Rodgort[/skill]--[skill]Flail[/skill]or[skill]Flurry[/skill]--[skill]Healing Signet[/skill] [skill]Bonetti's Defense[/skill] [skill]Conjure Flame[/skill]
You seemed to know which build I was talking about, Holy. But you're pretty confused on how it works.
None of the defense comes from actual enchantments, it all comes from the shield and the +10 while enchanted armor (which can be kept up by the easily reapplied Flame Djinn's Haste if Conjure Flame is stripped), and the damage is 36-43 per hit from the conjure (conjure warrior has 23-45 max), with an attack once every second from the attack speed boost, with an extra 20 from the -10 degeneration. And the only thing that'll stop the burning is hex removal, and in 15 seconds maximum, it can be reapplied.
Also, I'm pretty sure only an idiot would waste an enchantment removal on Flame Djinn's Haste on purpose, and even if they do, the reset is around half that of most enchant removers.
I haven't tested how much flurry reduces the dps by, but it shouldn't be a lot since it doesn't affect Conjure Flame.

If I removed Barbarous Slice I'd only lose 6 DPS, I could replace it with something like Savage Slash.

angmar_nite · Oct 17, 2007, 11:11 AM // 11:11

I /quit after I see flail/flurry. flurry kills your dps... And flail = they can run away. (condition removing is easy)

LightningHell · Oct 17, 2007, 11:28 AM // 11:28

Quote:

Originally Posted by Rikimaru

I should've listed the build I was talking about.
[skill]Star Burst[/skill] [skill]Barbarous Slice[/skill] [skill]Flame Djinn's Haste[/skill] [skill]Mark of Rodgort[/skill]--[skill]Flail[/skill]or[skill]Flurry[/skill]--[skill]Healing Signet[/skill] [skill]Bonetti's Defense[/skill] [skill]Conjure Flame[/skill]
You seemed to know which build I was talking about, Holy. But you're pretty confused on how it works.
None of the defense comes from actual enchantments, it all comes from the shield and the +10 while enchanted armor (which can be kept up by the easily reapplied Flame Djinn's Haste if Conjure Flame is stripped), and the damage is 36-43 per hit from the conjure (conjure warrior has 23-45 max), with an attack once every second from the attack speed boost, with an extra 20 from the -10 degeneration. And the only thing that'll stop the burning is hex removal, and in 15 seconds maximum, it can be reapplied.
Also, I'm pretty sure only an idiot would waste an enchantment removal on Flame Djinn's Haste on purpose, and even if they do, the reset is around half that of most enchant removers.
I haven't tested how much flurry reduces the dps by, but it shouldn't be a lot since it doesn't affect Conjure Flame.

If I removed Barbarous Slice I'd only lose 6 DPS, I could replace it with something like Savage Slash.

Thanks for the clarification.

Okay, now to work...

(Firstly, wtf superior rune on a melee caster with no buffs?)

Your sword at 10 Swordsmanship with a 15% modifier deals about 13.44 DPS. Under Flail, it would go to around 20, while using Flurry would render it around 15.12. With Conjures that would be 29.8 while out of a stance, 44.7 under Flail, and 33.5 while under Flurry. (I'm guessing Flurry affects the figure for Conjures now since they're incorporated into the same damage packet.) With constant Burning, that would be 43.8 out of a stance, 58.7 while in Flail, and 47.5 while under Flurry. The Axe warrior without skills, in comparison, would do 40 damage, with a superior headpiece (it's much less risky on a melee than on a caster), or 34.5 if one decides to play it safe and bring a minor. Barbarous Slice is troublesome to calculate, since you have to be out of a stance for it to bleed, and generally you'd want to be in a stance. Your spike is 285 damage, a 4 damage increase overall if the Axe is running a superior.

Hardly the triple damage you were talking about.

This build also has hardly the utility needed to deal with kiters (unless you're running Flurry), and can hardly be flexible enough to exploit advantageous situations.

Your shield provides what? 4 AL? At 4 tactics, which leaves the 75~ish armor you have with the armor bonus while enchanted.

Quote:

Also, I'm pretty sure only an idiot would waste an enchantment removal on Flame Djinn's Haste on purpose, and even if they do, the reset is around half that of most enchant removers.

If they can disable you, why not? When they're going to remove your Haste and sic a Shock Axe on you while you're in Flail, you're going to explode.

Rikimaru · Oct 17, 2007, 02:39 PM // 14:39

You're totally confused on the stats. It has 9 swordsmanship, 9 tactics, 16 fire magic, and 4 energy storage (might be 5, I forgot). Even with that low of Energy Storage, it has 47-50 energy and 4 energy regen.
It also gets 2 damage reduction and full use of the shield. A warrior does too, but it's more reason to use the sword over the scythe.
And I need to test it more, but I'm like 90% sure that Flurry doesn't affect conjure. If it is affected by Flurry, that means it's also affected by the +35% damage mods. If it is, it comes out to 40.8 damage per hit, if it's not, it comes out to 40.1, so it doesn't matter either way

(hilarious that the overall damage would be higher if it is)
And thanks for mentioning Barbarous, I completely forgot that it has a stance active, lol. For some reason I was thinking that Bonetti's was the only stance in the build.
[skill]Star Burst[/skill] [skill]Savage Slash[/skill] [skill]Flame Djinn's Haste[/skill] [skill]Mark of Rodgort[/skill] [skill]Flurry[/skill] [skill]Healing Signet[/skill] [skill]Bonetti's Defense[/skill] [skill]Conjure Flame[/skill]

The build should end up with 500 health (-75, +50, +45). On the sword, should I take a +5 armor mod or a +30 health mod?
If Attunement runes turn out to not be necessary, which I don't think they will be, I could get an extra 30 health from Vitaes, so the sword would give it 560 total health.
I don't know how much reduction an extra 5 armor would do, but choosing armor over health makes the heals just a little more effective.